A Broader Vision: MVRDV's Nathalie de Vries on Running a Business, Reinventing Practice, and Leading by Example

By Julia Gamolina

Nathalie de Vries is a co-founder and principal architect and urban designer of MVRDV, an interdisciplinary studio that works at the intersection of architecture and urbanism. The award-winning Dutch practice was set up by Nathalie alongside Winy Maas and Jacob van Rijs in 1993 and has established an international identity with a wide variety of building typologies and scales that are self-generated, innovative, experimental, and theoretical. She is renowned for a diverse body of work in a variety of scales and typologies that are grounded in connecting individuals, communities and environments. Over the past 25 years, she has designed and realised projects such as Villa VPRO, Silodam Housing, Book Mountain and Baltyk office tower, as well as three national monuments.

As Chief National Railroad Architect, Nathalie has built up experience in transport infrastructure which she has translated into a series of projects. Together with co-founder Jacob van Rijs, Nathalie has published MVRDV Buildings (2013), about the post-occupancy and the making of the built work of MVRDV. She regularly lectures at renowned universities and engages in international juries. In her conversation with Julia Gamolina, Nathalie talks about the political and cultural landscape in the Netherlands that catalyzed the start of MVRDV, and the tools that make great architecture, advising those just starting their careers to find an office that allows you to explore your favorite parts of architecture.

JG: We always start at the very beginning - tell me how your interest in architecture first developed.

NdV: My parents were both interested in culture and architecture, so architecture was always somehow a part of my life. Whenever there was something new built in the neighborhood we would always go and check it out, and on weekends and holidays, we would see museums, castles, and churches.

There was also a museum director, Frans Haks, in the province where I lived, Groningen, who later built the Groninger Museum with [Allessandro] Mendini. He displayed industrial design and popular art, music, and movies, next to contemporary art, which I was interested in, and I was also interested in Dutch arts and architecture movements like the Stijl. Finally, our family was also quite politically engaged, and I realized that with architecture, all of these interests could come together.

You studied at the Delft University of Technology. What did you learn there, both about yourself and about architecture?

I realized in Delft that to become a good architect, you have to become quite hands-on when designing. Developing your own style means acting by doing. Also, I discovered the importance of technology for our profession, along with how research and methodology, throughout history and together with social awareness, helped architects set goals. I became aware that you have to develop your societal position as well.

Villa VPRO, MVRDV’s inaugural project. Courtesy of MVRDV

What was your first professional experience?

My first position was an internship with Spanish architects in Barcelona, Lapeña y Torres. I was member of a student body that organized lectures at Delft, and Lapeña and Torres were so enthusiastic about us that they invited the whole student board to do internships in their office [laughs].

What a spirit! What did you learn from them?

I learned that practice is even nicer than studying! They tried and tested a lot, investigated design, made many models. I remember thinking to myself, “Let’s get this studying over with as soon as possible; working is really fun.”

What did you like about working?

Being able to learn how to build and thinking about the details. I found construction sites to be really exciting - I finally got an idea of what it was all intended to become.

What did you first do when you graduated?

I applied to a couple of young offices, all ones with a track record in building, which was a bit tough because I had just graduated and had little practical experience. But, I got an interview at Mecanoo. They asked why I wanted to work there and I said, “I really love your housing projects and the neighbourhoods you are creating.”

Another question was, “Why didn’t you apply to OMA.” I answered, “Because my boyfriend Jacob [Van Rijs, co-founder of MVRDV] is already working there.” During our studies, except for an internship, we deliberately did not ever want to work together [laughs]. Which they thought was hilarious because at the time two of Mecanoo’s partners were a couple.

Anyway, I got my first serious job there, and the rest is history.

“Developing your own style means acting by doing.”

What were the main things you learned at Mecanoo?

I was so lucky. I did several projects but for one I became project leader, which meant I had to get it built. I helped develop the design, talked to the city, to the contractor and consultants, and I had to work on the tender documents of the building. By the time I left [Mecanoo] it was already on site.

Apart from this and other projects, Mecanoo also worked on projects abroad, so I got used to the idea that that was normal for a Dutch firm. And I managed to do an almost full cycle from design to construction, which was pretty terrifying at the time—I was 25, 26!

How did you eventually start MVRDV?

While still at Mecanoo, Jacob [van Rijs], Winy [Maas], and I worked on a Europan Competition, in the evenings. Jacob and Winy were friends and as many young architects, we participated in competitions in our free time.

Mecanoo was such a great experience that I felt pretty confident by the time Jacob, Winy and I won Europan II. We made a portfolio of our work, and that went to a selection committee of the public broadcasting company, VPRO, who was looking for an architect. They came to visit us in our modest place that we temporarily enlarged. At the time I was the only one who had quit her daytime job already, but after being selected by the VPRO, we really took off. I think we had a big, big, big urge to do our own thing at the time.

Why?

There was a lot going on—it was the ‘90s and we felt construction should go into another direction. There was a large production of buildings in the Netherlands – after a deep, deep crisis in the eighties, the Netherlands wanted to build one million houses in ten years. You saw cities growing again, people needed new positions, and there was simply a lot to do. However, the buildings that were being built did not answer to our idea of the future, and we wanted to do something about that.

During this time, there was a lot of support for young architects, and a lot of support and discussion of the spatial development of the Netherlands. There was the Europan Competition for architects under forty, and a grant from the Dutch government that could only be obtained within two years after graduation. All of this kick-started our office.

All three of us got the grant, so that was quite a nice amount of money which helped us to take the step to quit our jobs and invest in models, computers, a car - we also didn’t have children yet. So, we had good projects, we had some ground money, it was a good start.

What have you learned about running your own business? For those who want to start their own firms, what advice do you have?

Never forget that an architecture firm is first and foremost a business. It was important that we were engaged in all aspects of our job, with our finances, and with all kinds of aspects of running the office besides design. Keep in mind though that because we were three people, we were able to divide this all up.

“Never forget that an architecture firm is first and foremost a business...The whole organization of an office as a tool to make great architecture has always fascinated me very much.”

How did you divide it?

Winy already had quite a big network when we started because he’s older than Jacob and me. Then Jacob was engaged in computer-aided design and the materialization of things. I was the only one who really went through the whole design and construction process from start to finish, so I was interested in how we organize our office to be optimal.

Mecanoo also really had that team feeling, so I realized this was also quite important—atmosphere and culture. We make sure that people here are happy. It’s not about only working hard; we also have some fun. The whole organization of an office as a tool to make great architecture has always fascinated me very much. How do you do this— how do you create the office as a business and a group of people?

Where do you feel like you’re in your career today?

For a long time, I’ve been very interested in creating a broader vision of what architecture is and what it can do. As architects, what is our position in society, how are we perceived, what is the development in our work? After my second child was born, I almost always have been teaching one day a week or performed another function as well for one day a week, sometimes two. I’ve always had another perspective on my work. Either teaching, or from the clients’ side, or as a consultant, or for the architects’ organization— and this helped me very much to expand what architecture is. I’ve always looked at things from different angles.

What was also important, with a team and heading an office, [was that] being out there in these different ways created better visibility for me. Instead of just being absorbed by the office, I was also still a person, with my own interests and identity, and I was also visible to the outside world as a person and not just as part of a collective.

Do you think that’s important?

I think it’s really important, because people learn about your personal viewpoints and about who you really are. Working with two guys, as a woman—now I’m getting to the point [laughs]. Clients are also usually all guys! Especially commercial clients. Institutional clients on the other hand are more often female.

I didn’t realize that at all when I first started, but I realized that my visibility in other moments and places, helps to make women more visible in the profession in general.

“...you can’t shout about what to do if you don’t start in your own office. At my age and in my position, I tell other women, ‘Let’s show ourselves. Let’s voice ourselves. Let’s admit it’s not always the easiest.’”

That’s exactly why we are here talking today and why Madame Architect exists.

Yes! When I became the President of the Royal Institute of Dutch Architects, there were only 23% of registered architects [in the Netherlands] that were women. I said, “Listen, we have to become visible, show ourselves, and we have to be out there as an example. We have to lead by example.”

Here are some numbers I dug up: 50% of the first-year students at TU Delft are women. At the academies it’s the same. But, the amount of women in architects’ offices was 31% in 2018. Where have they gone, these women? Of course you always look at your own office first, and we’re pretty balanced, I’m happy to say—but you can’t shout about what to do if you don’t start in your own office. At my age and in my position, I tell other women, “Let’s show ourselves. Let’s voice ourselves. Let’s admit it’s not always the easiest.” Other women, like Francine Houben, Caroline Bos, they also spoke out, along with other women in Dutch architecture.

Do you talk about childcare in how it relates to the profession, in Europe?

Absolutely. We have said at the Royal Institute of Dutch Architects, childcare isn’t a men’s and women’s issue, it’s everybody’s issue. If it’s difficult for women, it’s also difficult for men. We also started to sort it out a bit. An equally balanced work-life is important for both men and women, not just for women; work-life balance shouldn’t be a female problem.

How did you yourself find a way to raise two daughters, while running a firm?

My husband and I are partners in business, and also partners in private life. It hasn’t always been easy to combine work and family life, but we agreed at the beginning, “This is going to be 50-50.” In this way our calendars could be matched, so that only one of us was traveling, and there would always be someone at home in the evening, or to pick up the kids, have dinner together. But I must confess, I really wanted to have a building built before I wanted to have children! And since I did, we were already fairly established when we started a family, which helped.

Book Mountain, photography by Jeroen Musch

I actually hear from a lot of women, that they wish they were a little more established before having kids. That always surprised me, but now talking to you, I get it.

Looking back at everything, what have been some of the other challenges?

Professionally, the challenge has been that we started as people with a strong voice and a strong position in architecture. We think about the future a lot, and keeping that up is the biggest challenge and the biggest pleasure, actually. We are never really satisfied and are always trying to make the next move and the next step with the office - to stay relevant, to keep this position, and to be liked for that and therefore get nice commissions as well. The challenges are that we have to reinvent ourselves again and again in many ways, as technology and as our profession evolves.

With that in mind, what would you say your mission is? What’s the impact that you want to have on the profession, on the world?

I truly think that architecture can make lives much more comfortable, and create better lives for people in general. That’s what drives me. The pleasure of seeing that when projects are realized is the biggest reward.

Although many external factors try to take away parts of the architect’s work, or push us out, or try to figure out if we’re irrelevant, time after time, architects prove that since we are integrative thinkers, we are the ones who can bring many aspects of building together. Especially nowadays in this hyper-specialized world, it’s very important to have people thinking in a holistic way about environments. That’s our biggest value. And also we bring culture to building—that’s also a part of the pleasure and it’s important that we contribute.

“...time after time, architects prove that since we are integrative thinkers, we are the ones who can bring many aspects of building together. Especially nowadays in this hyper-specialized world, it’s very important to have people thinking in a holistic way about environments.”

With this in mind, what advice do you have for those just starting their careers? It’ll be up to us to maintain the value of architecture after all.

There are many ways of being an architect. Ask yourself, “What are my strong qualities?” If you can find an office that makes it possible for you to explore the aspects of architecture that you like best, that would be great. Also make sure you land in an office that thinks about you as well; it’s not just a one-way street! That’s how you last and keep on enjoying the job, however hard it might be. Keep fun in your work. Being in architecture is a tough job, but it’s also a very nice job and I think it’s good to have a balance of both challenges and joy.

I’ve been talking to other women in architecture a lot, exchanging experiences. A lot of them in the Netherlands have children— that is, if you want to have children, you don’t have to have children—and what we all said was that parenthood made us stronger and more organized. So, don’t see that [having children] is the end of your career. In fact, most of the women I talked to said, “It definitely opens new perspectives on your work and taught me to be more efficient with time.” Whether with or without children, good work-life balance is important for all.

Of course, because you absolutely have to do your work in the time that you have.

Yes. Parenthood should never be a career stopper. At the time it might seem like, “Oh my gosh I haven’t worked in two or three months,” but taking a break doesn’t make you worse; it can even make you better sometimes.

I admire people working in architecture outside of Europe who don’t have the benefit of this culture that we have—it’s more about couples having responsibilities, not just women. I know that it’s not like that in the States, not yet. Therefore, I think for women it’s probably even better to have your own office because then you’re in charge of these things, of your own schedule. But again, it’s a couples’ problem. I think it’s not just women, men would like to do this.

Yes, men want to see their kids grow up, and have some sense of work-life integration as well.

Exactly. I think offices should accept these things and support family life.